Wednesday, May 23, 2012

Ruffling feathers...

Yes, I'm about to ruffle some feathers, so if you aren't in the mood, don't read what follows. I've tried to be respectful in stating my opinions, but suspect I wasn't always successful since I'm passionate about this. Should you decide to continue, please continue all the way to the end. You've been warned.

A comment was made about my Sunday post, regarding the Catholic video. I've decided to post my thoughts, knowing they will be unpopular with many. The commenter disliked the view of marriage:

I gave them the right to their opinion, and posted it. Now, I'm exercising my right to disagree.

Nowhere in the Bible anywhere does God sanction same-sex marriages. I don't pretend to understand how it all works in the end. I will not condemn someone else. It isn't my place. God is the final judge, but we are expected to adhere to the laws God has set, not rationalize them away. We are not to commit adultery. Marriage has been established as a union between one man and one woman. Perhaps it is tradition, but until God -- not fickle man -- reveals it is something else, I prefer to err on His side. And before you question it, please continue reading.

Have you considered the nightmares created by "redefining" marriage? What about marriage between multiple partners? What about marriage between adults and children? What about marriage between a person and their pet? Where do you draw the line, or do you prefer the line be removed altogether? Considering the fact that God laid down 10 specific laws, He has drawn lines. Who is man to change those lines? I know, I know, man decided on the one man/one woman. Really? God started with Adam and Eve. One man and one woman. God's house is a house of order, not chaos.

Please do not insult me by saying that uncommitted relationships are encouraged by the laws established. It's a weak argument. Being single, I'm held to God's laws, including not committing adultery. I do my best to obey His Commandments. Frankly, I'm sick to death of having men/women -- not God -- demand I accept their terms and definitions because they want to feel better about themselves rather than bite the bullet and obey the 10 Commandments. I'm not saying it's easy. It isn't, but there are only ten. If it were easy, why bother? And those who don't believe in God have cut the first four, so there are only six, most of which are treated as optional or at least flexible.

You say the Catholic church wouldn't need to change. Do you understand the tenants of the Catholic church? I'm not Catholic and I'm pretty clear on quite a few of their tenants, including the one on the Sacrament of Marriage. You don't like what the Catholics believe? Fine. Choose a different church that conforms to what you want. There are plenty to choose from. If you don't believe in the tenants of the Catholic church, then you aren't Catholic. Really. Stop lying to yourself. Find out what you are and quit demanding others bend and twist to fit you.

And don't you dare try to throw the label of hater at me. You don't know me. You don't know my history, except what little I've shared here. You don't know my friends, my losses, or my journey. You do not know my prayers or my standing with God.

Am I angry right now? Yes. I resent anyone trying to manipulate me with emotional blackmail. And yes, that is exactly what you're trying to do.

In case you don't see it for yourself, let me show you:

The Roman Catholic video was well-made and beautiful, but a simple review of anthropological liturature and writings on ancient history will show that the word 'marriage' is not used in quite so simple a fashion as the creators of the video want us to believe.

Using "scientific evidence" has you coming across as educated. I don't care if you are or not. You are using education as your weapon of choice. It's a poor choice. Science is all about theories. Theories are disproved every day. In fact, the whole point of science is to disprove the experts.

Over a decade ago I came up with the one argument no one makes and no one takes the time to refute: if we discourage committed relationships between homosexuals, we encourage uncommitted relationships.

This is a blatant lie. If you start with a lie, it doesn't matter how many truths you pile on top of it, it's still a lie. But in case it isn't clear: WE encourage? Since when? No one is encouraging anything. Don't you dare play the it's-everyone-else's-fault card. So it's perfectly okay that I have to live by a different standard simply because I'm single? What happened to personal responsibility? What happened to self-restraint? What about self-discipline?

Some homosexuals will have committed relationships anyway, but those who might have considered it an option have less reason to do so if such relationships are generally viewed (legally, politically, socially) as no better than sleeping around.

And this is different from heterosexuals how? The Catholic church frowns on premarital relationships. Period. For the record, "relationships" and/or marriage are not requirements to survive and thrive. Really.

The position of the church need not change on this, just as Buddhists need not eat chicken as a part of a campaign to promote free-range (as opposed to caged) chicken.

Wait... what? Now you're comparing apples and oranges. The comparison is only vaguely related, at best. Trying to muddy things by false comparisons suggests a desire to hide from the truth. I suspect you're offended by that, but I'm sick of having such ridiculous arguments thrown at me as "evidence" of someone's rightness.

I admit, I am as unhappy about the desire of the makers of the video to deny Unitarians the right to perform 'gay marriages' as I would an effort to force the Catholic Church to perform 'gay marriages'.

And now it's about you. Finally, some truth: You are unhappy. I understand that. I don't agree with your point of view, but I accept you feel that way, and with reasons you haven't shared. I'm also okay with that. I don't need to know your reasons. You are entitled to them.

How could you have addressed this without raising my hackles? "I don't agree with all of the Catholic tenants."

There. Done.

I begrudge no one a loving relationship. I know what it is to live without, and to live with no hope of this changing. Most of my life, all I wanted was to marry a loving man and have children with him, to see his eyes when I look in our children's little faces. My past has made it impossible. There are I things I never learned and things I learned that hamper me in developing healthy relationships. It is with indescribable sorrow I have carefully boxed up those dreams and turned them over to God.

Have I sometimes wished I could change the rules? Just cut loose and live for the day. Do what I want. Yes.

Then sanity returns, and I realize I can break myself against the Commandments God has given, or I can use them as He intended all along: Guidance and protection.

Protection? Yes. I have enough regrets without the additional ones I'd have added if I'd done what I wanted rather than what God commanded.

The real question about that video isn't whether or not the Catholics are right or wrong in their beliefs. Really.

One can look at the video and complain and nitpick, or one can look at that video and examine one's own beliefs.

For me, since I'm not Catholic, the question is: What do I believe? Do I live up to those beliefs? Am I willing to take a stand for those beliefs?

I don't agree with all the Catholic tenants, but that isn't what I'm standing for: I'm standing for their right to believe and practice their faith as their church teaches. I'm standing for freedom of religion, peaceful religion.

If we give up our right to worship God how and where we may, nothing else matters.

The video is asking: Will you stand for what you believe?

The battle before us is as simple and as complicated as that: Do you believe in freedom of religion or don't you? If you don't, then it doesn't matter. If you do, then will you stand?

9 comments:

  1. Personally, if I was a gay person, comparing gay marriage to marrying a pet or marrying a child would offend me. The person would feel like you're calling them an animal or a pedophile, something lower than human. I think by definition marriage is something between two people.
    I know the Bible says stuff, but I don't think God cares about following the rules. I don't think the Bible was meant to hold people down. I guess the way I see it is...there are shitty marriages out there. There are straight marriages that go against the so-called sacredness of marriage every day. People who marry abusive partners, people who marry for money, or marry out of obligation, or marry because they just didn't know any better. Hell, my mom and dad got the right to marry. If straight couples are given a chance to marry and mess it up and go against the sacredness of marriage, then it's just not fair that gay couples don't get this chance too! That's like saying the marriage between my two narcissistic fuckheads of parents (hi mom, hi dad) is more Christian or more holy or whatever, than a gay marriage. And it's not! If gay people want to get married to each other, then no one has the right to stop them.
    I know there's the story of Adam and Eve, but that's just a story. Maybe they would have married different people if there had been anyone else around! Or maybe they've had past marriages and had divorces before meeting each other (in a previous life)!
    How do you know?

    There might be someone out there for you. I don't think God wants you to do Unchristian things, but I don't think he wants you to give up on hope either. I know there's someone out there for you. It is not impossible. I know it's not impossible. I don't think God would ever say you're impossible.

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    2. Thank you, Lisa. You have brought up the exact problem.

      "comparing gay marriage to marrying a pet or marrying a child would offend me. The person would feel like you're calling them an animal or a pedophile, something lower than human."

      There are places in the world where adults marrying children is legal and acceptable, and they would be offended to be called pedophiles. What's more, in their countries, they'd be even more offended to be compared to homosexuals, an offense they consider punishable by death.

      There are also entire groups of people who believe animals are higher life forms than people.

      My line of questioning was not to be offensive but to point out the path redefining will take. Someone is always going to choose to be offended. Someone is always going to feel left out. Again I ask, where is the line drawn?

      I agree that common sense dictates that marriage is between two people, but I'm not talking about common sense. Common sense is no longer common. It doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to see the problems in regards to the legalities of changing definitions. The lawyers will make billions haggling over the exact meaning.

      I also agree that there are people who shouldn't marry and who desecrate marriage without compunction. I'm not condoning it. It has always bothered me that you have to do more to obtain a driver's license than you do to obtain a marriage license in most places. To teach children, you have to have a degree, which means years of schooling, but to have children all it takes is a couple minutes and nine months.

      You have the right to believe whatever you like about the Bible. To be honest, if you don't believe the Bible, then this post is meaningless.

      All this also distracts from the original question:

      Do the Catholics have the right to believe what they believe? They believe the Bible isn't just a story. They believe it's the Word of God and meant to be followed. They believe the 10 Commandments are rules to be followed, not suggestions. Are those rules violated with regularity? Yes. Again, that isn't the point.

      Do they or do they not have the right to decide what they believe and attempt to follow those beliefs?

      Or does the government have the right to dictate to Catholics what they believe and how they practice what they believe?

      If the answer is no, the government doesn't have the right to dictate, then this argument about same-sex marriage is about dictating to the Catholics what they believe and how they are allowed to practice their religion.

      If the government is allowed to dictate to the Catholics, then the government has declared its self to be higher than God.

      Any government capable of giving you everything you want is capable of taking everything away.

      Thanks again, Lisa, for being brave enough to share your opinion.

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  2. Amazing how when people are challenged to stand for something they try to muddy the waters. I agree:
    "I'm standing for freedom of religion, peaceful religion."

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  3. I don't agree but I love you to pieces.

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  4. I'm Catholic. A practicing, loyal-to-the-Magisterium Catholic.


    In these times, just saying that is enough to get people to spit and hiss at you. You can say you are anything and be accepted in society... except that you are an orthodox Catholic.

    Every day in my field, I hear people bashing the Catholic Church for its views on homosexual marriage, contraception, and abortion. It's popular to do so. When I share my side, however, I'm shouted down. Freedom of speech isn't alive in the United States.

    Neither is freedom of religion. The thought of Catholic hospitals to have to go against the teachings of the Catholic Church because of a government mandate makes me shudder.

    The Catholic Church has not changed its teachings for 2,000-plus years. The earliest church documents demonstrate that, though we've changed up some of expressions of the faith (such as how the Mass is celebrated, etc.), we have never changed what we've taught. Even in the face of persecution like in Ancient Rome or even recently during the 1900s in Mexico or today in China.

    To quickly address the comment on the Sunday post, though... He said: " if we discourage committed relationships between homosexuals, we encourage uncommitted relationships."

    No worries... the Catholic Church is not discouraging committed relationships. So, I suppose there's no real argument there. The Catholic Church is protecting the sanctity of marriage. We are not against homosexuals, we don't hate them. What we're saying is that marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman. We've always said this. It's not a new Catholic teaching...

    I don't want to get into the argument about homosexual marriage because I don't think most people who write comments like that want to engage in a conversation about what Catholics really believe or teach. (It's easy enough to find out what we believe though: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM)

    What concerns me deeply right now is the idea of a government mandate to force Catholics to go against their faith, go against what they believe.

    As a history buff, I find this so against what our country was founded on... that it hurts the heart.

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    1. Thank you, Kiki. I appreciate the extra information. The commercial's points were clear and specific: Marriage shouldn't be redefined, life is scared, and freedom of religion needs to be protected, the last being the most significant, and yet it is the one detractors ignore. They bicker and fight over the first two, completely missing the significance of the last. In their demands to have the first two their way, they fail to recognize they are destroying the last one. In so doing, they are destroying the very foundation of this nation. I'd laugh if it weren't so tragic: Without the last one, freedom of religion, they wouldn't have the right to have the arguments about the first two. Short-sighted in the extreme. I'm standing with you, Kiki.

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